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Zer Netmouse
February 3rd, 2009
07:12 pm


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Do You Believe in Usury?

(58 comments | Leave a comment)

Date:February 5th, 2009 12:18 am (UTC)

Re: All interest is usury

Didn't someone rob me of my $10, 50 years later? After all, I put it away for safe keeping, why can't I buy the same $10 worth of stuff 50 years later? Someone stole my work I did that produced the $10 that I saved.

"if I lend a friend $100, my friend has $100 more, I have $100 less." But, where did you get your $100 from to give to your friend? Where does our money come from?

"Even when the amount of certificates exceeded the available specie, there was no debt involved." If not, then where did all the money come from? How did it get into people's pockets?

"Your starting claim, that money is created by debt, is wrong." Then where does it come from? How does it get into people's pockets and bank accounts?
Date:February 5th, 2009 04:04 am (UTC)

Re: All interest is usury to people of silly religions

If somebody robbed you, who? You still have the $10, which buys precisely $10 worth of stuff. For some stuff, it's more than it was 50 years ago; for other stuff, it's less. How much did 100 lumens of room lighting for 3 hours at night cost in 1900? 1950? How much will $10 worth of 1970's computing power cost in 2020?

I lend a friend $100, creating debt, not creating any money. What difference does it make where I got the $100 from? That's an example of debt not creating money.

When the government printed money, the money came from the Mint (the government's printing press). No debt was involved. It got into people's pockets by people putting it there. The government paid people salaries and bought stuff, that's how it spent money and people acquired it.
Date:February 5th, 2009 04:28 am (UTC)

Re: All interest is usury to people of silly religions

I won't go to the religion thing yet.

As for your inflation example, if my Grandfather a 100 years ago put in an hours worth of work that he got paid in $1 and put it in his coffee can, why isn't the work he did back then and the $1 it represents still able to buy the same amount of stuff today? Due to inflation that dollar is now worth $.03 cents. Somebody stole his work from him. True, some prices have gone down, but the basket of goods used to measure inflation has shown it to go up.

"What difference does it make where I got the $100 from?" That's one of our biggest problems. Nobody really understands where their money comes from.

"The government paid people salaries and bought stuff, that's how it spent money and people acquired it." And that's how it should work or at least for some of the money supply. But, then if government can do this, then why do they have to create treasuries and sell them to China with interest? Why do we even have a $10.7 trillion debt with interest to pay if we can just print it and pay people with it?

Come on, isn't this fun? Aren't you learning something? Keep going, learn the truth.

Now, answer the question where does money come from? Think about it. You got paid, and assuming you don't work at the government, how did your employer get the money? How did the person who bought your company's widget get their money? And on, and on. It all traces back to a bank. Only the principal though and not the interest.

Don't let religion cloud this. Even Aristotle (non-religious) wrote against usury and he wasn't religious. Keep going, I can tell you're coming around. I'm not trying to "win", I just want someone to tell me, with out a doubt, that I'm wrong.
Date:February 7th, 2009 05:13 am (UTC)

Re: All interest is usury

"I just want someone to tell me, with out a doubt, that I'm wrong."

I found someone to prove me wrong!

To sethb (and others), I apologize if this thread sounded like a flame war.

I think what you (sethb) was talking about when you say you gave $100 to a friend and they now have money to spend on something else is called the velocity of money. The frequency of exchange of money in the economy can allow even the originally created money as a debt to be reused over and over. Wow, this makes so much sense now. Just needed to hear the term velocity of money as it is applied to economic theory.

So, back to the usury/interest question? I don't know. I've always been inclined to say that it's your money so do with it what you want. Which I struggled with while under the illusion that all money used in any transaction had debt behind it. With the velocity of money theory, maybe charging interest is okay.
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